I am actually looking for a scientific answer because i want to avoid plugging the typical “Goddidit” to this but if no one can provide an exploitation i guess I don’t have a choice.
So we learned in AP Chem that with regards to delta S (change in order) things are constantly becoming more disordered or unchanged (Delta S of the surrounding + Delta S of the system is either =0 or <0, Delta S of the universe). So if the universe is constantly moving in spontaneous irreversible reactions into a disordered state, how did complex organisms form? Wouldn't that imply That everything should be breaking down instead of forming and rearranging them self into living breathing conscious beings? Is this against the law of nature? I know natural selection occurs but could this be a hindering factor in the theory of evolution?
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I Have A Chemistry Question Regarding Evolution?
Posted on May 3, 2013.
Claim CF001:
The second law of thermodynamics says that everything tends toward disorder, making evolutionary development impossible.
Response:
The second law of thermodynamics says no such thing. It says that heat will not spontaneously flow from a colder body to a warmer one or, equivalently, that total entropy (a measure of useful energy) in a closed system will not decrease. This does not prevent increasing order because
the earth is not a closed system; sunlight (with low entropy) shines on it and heat (with higher entropy) radiates off. This flow of energy, and the change in entropy that accompanies it, can and will power local decreases in entropy on earth.
entropy is not the same as disorder. Sometimes the two correspond, but sometimes order increases as entropy increases. (Aranda-Espinoza et al. 1999; Kestenbaum 1998) Entropy can even be used to produce order, such as in the sorting of molecules by size (Han and Craighead 2000).
even in a closed system, pockets of lower entropy can form if they are offset by increased entropy elsewhere in the system.
In short, order from disorder happens on earth all the time.
The only processes necessary for evolution to occur are reproduction, heritable variation, and selection. All of these are seen to happen all the time, so, obviously, no physical laws are preventing them. In fact, connections between evolution and entropy have been studied in depth, and never to the detriment of evolution (Demetrius 2000).
Several scientists have proposed that evolution and the origin of life is driven by entropy (McShea 1998). Some see the information content of organisms subject to diversification according to the second law (Brooks and Wiley 1988), so organisms diversify to fill empty niches much as a gas expands to fill an empty container. Others propose that highly ordered complex systems emerge and evolve to dissipate energy (and increase overall entropy) more efficiently (Schneider and Kay 1994).
Creationists themselves admit that increasing order is possible. They introduce fictional exceptions to the law to account for it.
Creationists themselves make claims that directly contradict their claims about the second law of thermodynamics, such as hydrological sorting of fossils during the Flood.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics can be stated in many different ways, e.g.:
that the entropy of the universe tends towards a maximum (in simple terms, entropy is a measure of disorder)
usable energy is running out
information tends to get scrambled
order tends towards disorder
a random jumble won’t organize itself
It also depends on the type of system:
An isolated system exchanges neither matter nor energy with its surroundings. The total entropy of an isolated system never decreases. The universe is an isolated system, so is running down.
A closed system exchanges energy but not matter with its surroundings. In this case, the 2nd Law is stated such that the total entropy of the system and surroundings never decreases.
An open system exchanges both matter and energy with its surroundings. Certainly, many evolutionists claim that the 2nd Law doesn’t apply to open systems. But this is false. Dr John Ross of Harvard University states:
… there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself.
Open systems still have a tendency to disorder. There are special cases where local order can increase at the expense of greater disorder elsewhere. One case is crystallization. The other case is programmed machinery, that directs energy into maintaining and increasing complexity, at the expense of increased disorder elsewhere. Living things have such energy-converting machinery to make the complex structures of life.
The open systems argument does not help evolution. Raw energy cannot generate the specified complex information in living things. Undirected energy just speeds up destruction. Just standing out in the sun won’t make you more complex—the human body lacks the mechanisms to harness raw solar energy. If you stood in the sun too long, you would get skin cancer, because the sun’s undirected energy will cause mutations. (Mutations are copying errors in the genes that nearly always lose information). Similarly, undirected energy flow through an alleged primordial soup will break down the complex molecules of life faster than they are formed.
It’s like trying to run a car by pouring petrol on it and setting it alight. No, a car will run only if the energy in petrol is harnessed via the pistons, crankshaft, etc. A bull in a china shop is also raw energy. But if the bull were harnessed to a generator, and the electricity directed a pottery-producing machine, then its energy could be used to make things.
To make proteins, a cell uses the information coded in the DNA and a very complex decoding machine. In the lab, chemists must use sophisticated machinery to make the building blocks combine in the right way. Raw energy would result in wrong combinations and even destruction of the building blocks.
When you think about the fabrics of life. You can break it all down to its smallest components. Atoms. Atomic levels to molecules, molecules to the existence of air, fire, water, and dry matter or earth, dirt material. Atoms combined with material create life. Knowledge is contained in the atomic light and infused with proteins creates living creatures. These proteins are the basic formula for actions in the brain and genetic makeup. The atomic level is the existence all throughout the entire universe, the fabric of life. This is where transformation happens. The material breaks down to dust in death. Evolution stops in that material. Evolution of the human is the understanding of the complete self. The complete self is understanding that which holds all knowledge. This is what the id is that Sigmund Freud speaks of. The deeper part of mind which is the hidden in the atomic level of knowledge and wisdom, although it is small, it is really much bigger because of the knowledge it contains, knowledge of the entire universe. Which is why the iceberg is much bigger under the water and all you see is the tip above the water. The mind is the same in depth most don’t understand, they only see the tip of the iceberg, which is conscious awareness. We come to know the macrocosm through its fabric of the microcosm. chemistry is just one of the smallest fabrics of the microcosm of existence. That is just pulling out one string and understanding that string, rather than looking at the whole picture of the entire fabric. What appears to be disorder is just a transformation of understanding the process of what it takes to evolve. In evolution, one state dies while the next is manifesting at the same moment. The disorder is just looking at the death of the old, it is not looking into what is being born in that process of death. It all transforms. When we evolve, the earth and the entire universe transforms with it. It has to accommodate this new understanding of the life which can no longer be sustained with the same material as the old understanding. As we come to understand differently, we will use different material to sustain that living. Conditions change. Chemically, physically, mentally, and all changes except the Atom. It is always the same and always will be. So, how does this equate to God did it. Well, atoms are Adam. Dark matter is Eve. They give birth to all there is that we see. Thus you have the beginning of life. Eve was pulled from Adam, Dark matter was pulled from the Atomic levels of all existence. Atoms are made from light photons which is Cosmic Knowledge. We are coming to know the cosmic knowledge hidden within us at the smallest levels, through Adam or the Atom.
“I am actually looking for a scientific answer…”
No, you’re not — you’re spouting nonsense in a religion forum.
“we learned…things are constantly becoming more disordered…”
Apparently you didn’t pay attention to the lesson very well. Entropy occurs naturally in a closed system, there there is no net change in energy. In a system with an input of energy, entropy can decrease (that change produces an *increase* in entropy elsewhere, which in the case of cells is heat given off by work done that escapes into the universe).
So entropy can decrease locally given an input of energy — like from the sun on our planet, or in a cell that uses chemical metabolism to use energy to do work.
Finally, the level of entropy in the universe is *constant.* It doesn’t increase overall. In some localities it decreases through an input of energy, which results in an increase somewhere else, but the whole stays balanced.
Next time, pay more attention.
If that would hinder evolution it would also hinder growth. It would be impossible for an acorn to grow into an oak tree or a fertilized egg to grow into an adult mammal.
Explain how you think that principle would hinder evolution but not growth. After all, if everything becomes more disordered it should be completely impossible for a plant to take in sunlight, nutrients from the soil and water over a period of many years and use them to grow and develop.
This is what people don’t understand about religion.
You are in G-d, inside G-d while the tricks of Maya tells everything we want to know.
You are made in G-d’s image, perhaps asleep/in a state of Avidya.
There is nothing wrong with science itself, but problems occur when people become identified with it.
Adam: 1. The first man in Hebrew tradition.
2. Unregenerate human nature = Human frailty.
The first man of the Bible who sinned in the Garden of Eden.
Unregenerate: adj: Not regenerated: Not renewed in heart: Remaining or being at enmity with God:
Unrepentant < Sounded a warning of what science could do if it became the mere servant of unregenerate human nature – Roy Lewis & Angus Maude. >
—————————————…
In The Life and Letters of Charles Darwin, Charles writes:
“When we desend to details we can prove that no one species has changed, nor can we prove that the supposed changes are beneficial, which is the groundwork of the theory. Nor can we explain why some species have changed and others have not. The latter case seems to me hardly more difficult to undestand precisely and in detail than the former case of supposed change”
Could it be that darwainian evolution is accepted without fact only because the only other alternative is God created it?
—————————————…
Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Timothy Chapter 6:
17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
In Hinduism: Chapter 10. The Opulence of the Absolute.
Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle, O Arjuna. Of all sciences I am the spiritual science of the self, and among logicians I am the conclusive truth.
We are made in G-d’s image…….◄ Genesis 1:27 ►
They would really love it if the earth was an open system, but lets look at the definition of a closed system for a second and form an opinion based on the definition…
Closed systems:
Closed systems exchange energy but not matter with an outside system. Though they are typically portions of larger systems, they are not in complete contact.
The Earth is essentially a closed system; it obtains lots of energy from the Sun but the exchange of matter with the outside is almost zero.
SOOO, you are very correct in your thinking my friend. Also if we look at goo to you evolution-the creation of gender is such a large devolutionary step from efficiency. Mitosis and myosis would have been a lot better then searching for mates or possible compatible reproductive organs(since many animals have proper ‘interlocking’ mechanisms(eewww gross!).
Entropy in the Bible:
Psalms 102:25,26 25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26 They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed
Isaiah 51:6 6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, And look on the earth beneath. For the heavens will vanish away like smoke, The earth will grow old like a garment, And those who dwell in it will die in like manner; But My salvation will be forever, And My righteousness will not be abolished.
Hebrews 1:11,12 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.
Theses garments are not being worn until they are no good, they are fading away to nothing because that is the nature of this world. We are warned in Colossians about the gnosis(knowledge) of this world or what seems right.
Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil ° you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
You forgot to pay attention to the details. In a closed system entropy increases–thus the overall entropy of the universe is increasing. However–the earth is not a closed system –it get E (energy) from the sun. That gain of energy allows for local ordering to occur (as reactions as measured by the gibbs free energy is the sum of delta h and delta s). YOu don’t need to be a whiz kid to prove this for yourself. Photosynthesis takes the energy of sunlight and converts carbon dioxide and water to sugars–that is–making more complex molecules out of less complex one. This is because of the energy from the sun. (You do realize that the gain in entropy in the sun from nuclear fusion to yield light and heat–when consider the sun/earth as a closed system–then overall entropy is increasing even though on planet earth you have it decreasing due to solar energy).
Your question in chemistry with regard to life forms is irrelevant to the question or notion of the complexity of the universe, what I am saying is even though the universe is in disorder or chaos the lifeforms inside the universe is would still exist and continue moving on relative to the complexity of the universe the quantum particle is not directly proportional to the event that is happening to the disorder of the universe.
The devolving into chaos thing applies to a closed system. In the case of earth, energy is being received from the sun. This is what fuels life and change.
But I agree with King of Hearts 4 – if you want a science question answered, ask it there. “because they are constantly trying to remove God from the equation” is an excuse, not a request for a serious answer.
I never said anything about “spontaneous processes”.
If there’s no way for the DNA code to come about via natural processes, evolution is impossible. A huge problem is this: the DNA information requires complex decoding machines, including the ribosome, so it can be decoded into the specifications to build the proteins required for life, including enzymes. But the information required to build ribosomes is itself encoded on the DNA. So DNA information can’t be decoded without products of its translation, forming a ‘vicious circle’. And decoding machinery requires energy from ATP, built by ATP-synthase motors, built from instructions in the DNA decoded by ribosomes … ‘vicious circles’ for any materialistic origin theory.
Chemistry and Biology are that way ———>
EDIT: Science plays no role whatsoever in religion, and claims made for religion with science should be thrown out as circumstantial at best, manipulative fiction at worst.
Atheism and science are in no way related, and you can not assume all atheists are competent in AP chemistry. No one is trying to remove “god” from the equation. There’s no reason to have him there in the first place.
EDIT2: Are you saying that because we won’t know, we should just believe a god did it? Not only is that specifically unscientific, it’s based on a false assumption. We don’t KNOW that we’ll never know everything, and for us to say that we do is absurd.
I don’t even see where interstellar space travel fits into your answer.
So if the universe is constantly moving in spontaneous irreversible reactions into a disordered state, how did complex organisms form?
– Second law, in a closed system, not in an open system. In total the system may be closd, but part of it are still open systems.
No, what this means is that changes occur and they can be either to the benefit or detriment to a life-form. And over time, those with advantageous changes survive and those that do not, will likely not be around for long (in evolutionary time periods).
The advantageous changes become colloquially known as “adaptations”.
There is a difference between open and closed systems. You are also falling into the trap of applying the concept of Entropy in ways in which it is not relevant!
Entropy increases in a CLOSED system. You are confusing closed with open systems.
there is still plenty of heat in the universe …